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Mary0826 #301

Re:Caesar Creek Beach Ohio

Date Posted:06/11/2018 03:49:00

 From what I understand, three things are affecting "the hill".  First, as the number of beach goers have dropped over the years, the park has been shutting down facilities starting at the far left end.  There were more rows of parking and that was closed off first.  Next, budget cuts have reduced the amount of mowing all over the park.  They certainly could just as easily not mowed on other places, but again lack of use dictated that not all areas associated with the beach be mowed.  Another part of this is that apparently, there is less use of the grassy areas and more of the sandy areas, and they are doing a better job of grooming the sand than they did a few years back.  Third is the gay issues already mentioned.  By eliminating the most out-of-the-way part of the grassy area, they are forcing gays to become more main-stream, or simply to leave.  There are fewer issues with nudity and gay sex acts with people being forced to lay out in an area where more people will be walking closely by.  There also are fewer police, highway patrol, and ranger patrols than there used to be so that is another reason to get rid of more obscure places to lay out.

Lets face it, whatever the reasons, the lack of mowing is just another step in making the park less friendly.  Some of the changes which have affected all users have anti-gay overtones.  There used to be restroom and change facilities.  Then the change areas, which were simply large roofless open rooms were eliminated.  One of the reasons sited was that people were using the change areas for totally nude sunning.  Is this a crime in an area "protected" from the other sex?  There also was the issue of inappropriate sexual encounters in the change areas.  While nobody said it never happened with women on the ladies side, they did site a problem on the men's side.  Another pseudo complaint was that the boards that were used for the seating in the change areas had to be replaced.  I seriously doubt that this was all that big of an expense had they simply repaired the seating.  Instead, they blocked off the change area, leaving just the rest rooms.  This created a few new problems.  Toilet stalls and the shower areas became places of gay activities, and so the showers were also blocked.  Supposedly, creative people were climbing over the fairly low 8 foot walls around the former change areas, and now being sealed off from all others, all sorts of activities happened.  Gays, including some lesbians, snuck into the former men's change area to sun in the buff and have all sorts of sex.  Straight couples did the same in the women's change area.  Next the parks tore down the change area walls, blaming the bad mortar in the brick bonds and improperly made bricks.  The walls were never replaced.  Badly made wooden walls were constructed only on the sides of the still existing rest rooms to give some privacy.  This created new problems.  more sex than ever in the restroom areas, and holes being drilled in the thin plywood walls where peeping tom types could see what was happening inside. Next, the restrooms themselves were torn down.  This time they used the primary excuse that it was a water-safety issue.  First they claimed that the restrooms were using too much water and lowering the water table.  Gee -- Why is there that huge water tower on the way in -- to store air?  Second they said the waste water was leaching eventually to the lake.  This could be an issue if it was really happening, but there are other solutions.  At the time, the waste water was run through a septic tank like system where the watery substances ran out in piping under the grassy areas between the parking lot and the beach.  The more solid materials were pumped out of huge septic tanks and taken to other areas (one used to be between the water tower and the road to the boat ramp nearby) and put shallowly under the surface of the land.  Various wild flowers and grasses used to thrive in this area, fertilized by the human wastes.  Perhaps they simply did not have enough space for all the waste generated over time.  Eventually, the  areas could be re-used once the waste materials had been totally or nearly totally consumed by the plants and subterranean animals like worms, insects, and bacteria.  So now the restrooms have gone, being replaced by porta potties which have the wastes taken to a true waste treatment facility.  However, I bet that there is a lot more fowling of the water now than there was before by people who don't want to used the crappy (pun intended) toilet facilities.

The state has also eliminated the life guards (again there are many explanations, such as lack of qualified personnel, state park liability issues, or basic costs.  I have also been told that the lifeguards were eliminated because they "protected" thongers and topfree women.  Most if not all seemed to be at least thong accepting and friendly towards thonging, and they did protect thongers in the sense that if someone would complain about seeing some ass or breasts, they would set the person right on the legalities.  A person can still call the ranger but unless there is the need for an ambulance, they may take up to two-hours to respond, leaving thongers to protect themselves.  This is one of the reasons I prefer thonging on busy days.  Even people who do not like thonging are unlikely to look the other way if a physical altercation were to develop, and to be honest, more and more people seem to accept thonging and topfree beach use.

Not mowing the grass, replacing the nicer flush toilet restrooms with porta potties, lack of life guards, no food or drink service (the consession counter has been closed for many years), etc.  have made this park less and less of a nice family destination -- irregardless of the status of thonging.  Some people I have talked to have even indicated that they think the beach will be permanently closed soon.  Little things like fixing broken concrete walkway have gone without repairs for up to five years in some cases -- repairs that could be done for less than $1000 I would think.  Parking areas and roadways into the beach area are also showing their age.  The Army Corp of Engineers contracted with the state when the beach and other park areas were built stating that the upgrades must be maintained for at least 50 years.  50 years is only a few years away.  After that time, the state can do whatever they want and the Federal Government will no longer have a say. except for the flood control issues of the lake and dam.

The state just spent millions on the new marina facility.  All state of the art in every respect.  However, this comes with a pay-back period planned to take 30 years and many don't thing even that can be accomplished.  Think Caesars Creek is not in trouble?  Just wait a few years and respond on this thread.
BikiniMale #302

Re:Caesar Creek Beach Ohio

Date Posted:06/12/2018 12:07:04

 Thanks for the detailed update. 
J_R_365 #303

Re:Caesar Creek Beach Ohio

Date Posted:06/12/2018 01:11:11

 Some places stop mowing because geese don't like tall grass, so they stay away (and consequently don't poop there).
cmp304 #304

Re:Caesar Creek Beach Ohio

Date Posted:06/12/2018 04:02:54

 I'm seeing the same decline in so many parks.  Much of what we have in local/state/federal rec areas has been constructed as part of the New Deal programs during the great depression, as a component of flood control/power generation projects or a one-time grant or legislative funding.  We built it but refused to pay to maintain it and years of neglect are starting to show.  More disturbing is the condition of our highways, railroads, public buildings, utility grid  and the actual dams that hold back all that water.
We are good at spending money when we want something new, but not good at spending to keep what we have.

ithongit #305

Re:Caesar Creek Beach Ohio

Date Posted:06/13/2018 02:23:06

 Perhaps the run-down conditions are not due to a conspiracy by the state, but instead a planed usable life span by the Corp of Engineers.  50 Years ago, sometime around 1970, the Corp had to sell the project to the local people, the state, and the federal government.  So they made it appealing from a number of different standpoints.  Flood prevention may have been the primary interest, but adding a beach, putting in boat docks and restrooms, access roads, and even that huge water tower made the work easier to sell to the locals.  It would become an attraction, bringing a lot of people to the area.

But just like most bridges, the channel creating dikes in New Orleans, and other projects, the planners may have decided to make things last only so long.  The Herbert Bonner Bridge which connects Nags Head to Pea Island was built in the 1960's with a specific life expectancy.  A lot more money might have produced a bridge that would have lasted a lot longer -- perhaps stretching into the centuries, but the cost pay-back did not make such a venture realistic, so they built the bridge to last something like 35 years.  But replacement at 35 years was ultimately much more expensive than anticipated in the 1960's and new regulations, design criteria, the need for additoinal lanes both for traffic and emergencies, made the new bridge very VERY expensive.  To top that off, there were concerns about the environment, new issues with shipping channels, and the effects of beach errosion and the way the mostly sand islands move around to contend with.  Most of these issues were not even known or thought about in the 1960's.  So the bridge continued to rot away (partly due to the effects of the salt water on the reinforcement bars) and after 50 years, the state had to litterally beg the federal government to put up the money to replace the bridge, or the bridge would have to be shut down and perhaps replaced by a much lower volume ferry system.  This would requite ferry boats to be pulled from other routes, and would make evacuations in the event of storms almost impossible.  Was the government wrong to build a bridge which could only survive a short period of time?  Who knows?  When the bridge was built, there was very little use of the lower Outer Banks, except by hearty Hunters and Fishermen.  Nobody knew for sure what would happen in the next 35 (or 50) years.  

There were also no guarantees that a huge water-sport park at Ceaser's Creek, Buck Creek, or other locations would become successful.  The Army may have simply said "lets see what happens over the next 50 years" and not over built things to last longer.  Today, it is possible that nobody has the funds to make repairs to the original facility.  And because of the continued dilapidation, of the park, it is possible that only a small percent of the number of people expected to use the park will actually use it in the future.  So a new, scaled down facility might be the best direction for the next 50 years.  Obviously, some feel that the park will succeed as a major boating facility, or the new Marina probably would not have been built, or the one bilt would not be so big or elaborate.

I would venture to say that changes in lifestyle and economics may also be part of the reason for the reduction of park visitors.  When built, gas was cheap.  When built, families did things together.  When built, there was not a water-park pool in every town and community.  When built, there was not as much Air Conditioning, and people did what they had to in order to stay cool.  All of this has changed, and some of these changes may have cut into the attendance figures for these parks.
BikiniMale #306

Re:Caesar Creek Beach Ohio

Date Posted:06/15/2018 07:21:53

 Just came back from Caesar's.  I was there from about 1:30pm until about 3pm.  A couple of guys in thongs.  I was in a bikini myself.  Nice day at the beach
The Swan #307

Re:Caesar Creek Beach Ohio

Date Posted:06/17/2018 05:10:26

Ithongit:  I'm not so sure attendance numbers are down that much. It used to be that if you got to the beach at 7am or after 8pm you almost always had the place to your self. Now there is almost always somebody there. I believe horseback riding is more frequent as I now almost always encounter some one on the bridle trails. The hiking trails I use are being maintained more and more frequently and I see more and more people on them. It used to be I could go all day and not see anyone on a trail but now I assume I will see someone on a trail. I'm even seeing what appear to be new trails being developed perhaps by citizens and not the state. I do know however, that beach attendance is down from the 80's and 90's. I'd really like to see what the attendance numbers are for the park in general and the beach.
To the rest of the board:
No problems thonging this year. Although I did see a snooping drone. I'm not sure what do about those. I don't think using them for target practice is appropriate, but then again I don't think hovering a drone around me and other sunbathers is appropriate either. Maybe an EMF variable wave generator that would fit in a backpack would cure it.
Mary0826 #308

Re:Caesar Creek Beach Ohio

Date Posted:06/19/2018 04:45:52

SWAN -- We sometimes agree and sometimes disagree on many things, and I appreciate your feedback.  On the topic of drones, I think I am agreeing. I have never had one check me out that I know of, but would not want to have it happen either.  Drones are regulated by the FAA.  Perhaps they have some rule about how close you can fly one to people or if you can fly them over people in the event something happened and the drone crashed.  10 years ago, people were writing this board about what to do about conventional photos being taken and the problems created by cell phones with cameras.  Perhaps the issues of being spied on or photographed by a drone needs a new topic posted.  I will support the topic if THE SWAN or anyone else wants to start it, but think a person who has actually had an experience with a drone should start such a topic.
As far as attendance figures, I am sure they exist someplace, but am under the impression that the state only counts the number of cars in and out of the park and not specific details on what people do when they get there or how many are in cars.  A while back, ITHONGIT had said her father shot some home movies at CC from the 70's or early 80's and the place was packed -- cars from one end of every row in the parking lot from one end to the other, all rows (including those that have now been eliminated) in use, etc.  Several others agreed that beach usage seemed to have gone down since the park opened (in the 1970's).   Perhaps the movies were taken on a holiday or when some special event was occurring.  I agree that other activities may be increasing the number of visitors using other parts or features of the park, and this might remove some beach goers.  I also can not say from personal knowledge that beach use is down, the same, or up -- it seems about the same as always to me, but I only visit this park about once a month now and a lot less often in past years, so I can not really make an accurate appraisal other than to refer to other comments stating that beach use is down.  Brad suggested that some of the popularity shown in the home movies (made in the early days) could be the "new place" syndrome.  This seems to apply to almost any place or anything that is new.  People go there for a while (while it is new) then taper off to more realistic numbers as times go on.  I have been told that this happens at many stores and restaurants, and can fool the more inexperienced business owner into expecting future sales to be just as good.


tanwood #309

Re:Caesar Creek Beach Ohio

Date Posted:06/19/2018 05:51:01

Was at Caesar Creek for four hours yesterday (Monday) and was the only male there in minimal wear that I could see. After about three hours one of the rangers drove by and stopped at the end of the sidewalk on left side of beach. He stayed there for a few minutes and drove by againon his way out. Very hot day and I walked from the grassy area between the two lower sidewalks on left side of beach up to the pavilion to fill two water bottles. Wearing g-string only.
Martylouie #310

Re:Caesar Creek Beach Ohio

Date Posted:06/20/2018 03:41:46

 The reason you may see less swimming at beaches and public pools is the proliferation of private pools.  Why drive to the lake when you can just walk out your backdoor?
ohiothonger #311

Re:Caesar Creek Beach Ohio

Date Posted:06/20/2018 05:48:28

 THE SWAN, MARY0826 -- Mary is right.  Drone operation is governed by the FAA.  But operation over Ohio State Parks is also regulated by Ohio law.  Below is one of several referenced in their websites to the rules.   I only mention the two FAA regulations that seem like they might be appropriate for Ceaser's Creek.  What is important is that they are all in FAA Part 107: 


Small Unmanned Aircraft Regulations (Part 107)

March 23, 2018
Contact:  Les Dorr 

Phone: 202-267-3883

... You must keep your drone within sight. Alternatively, if you use First Person View or similar technology, you must have a visual observer always keep your aircraft within unaided sight (for example, no binoculars). Neither you nor a visual observer can be responsible for more than one unmanned aircraft operation at a time...

...  You currently cannot fly a small UAS [small unmanned aircraft or drone] over anyone not directly participating in the operation, not under a covered structure, or not inside a covered stationary vehicle. ...


The State of Ohio has created the following rules for flying drones in state parks.  

"543.11 UNMANNED AIRCRAFT . (a) No person shall operate an unmanned aircraft within the park district or in the airspace overlying the park district without first obtaining a permit from the Director. (1) As used in this section, “unmanned aircraft” means a device that is used or intended to be used for flight in the air without the possibility of direct human intervention from within or on the device, and the associated operational elements and components that are required for the pilot or system operator in command to operate or control the device (such as cameras, sensors, communication links). This term includes all types of devices that meet this definition (e.g. model airplanes, quadcopters, drones) that are used for any purpose, including for recreation or commerce. (b) Persons may be authorized to use unmanned aircraft by obtaining a permit from the Director. Such permits may be issued when the Director finds: (1) That the proposed activity and use will not unreasonably interfere with or detract from the promotion of public health, welfare and safety or security of the park; (2) That the proposed activity or use is not reasonably anticipated to incite violence, crime or disorderly conduct; (3) That the proposed activity will not entail unusual or extraordinary or burdensome expense or ranger operations by the park district. (4) That the activity will not have an adverse affect on other reserved facilities at the day and hour required in the application (c) Whoever violates this section shall be fined not more than one hundred fifty dollars ($150.00) for the first offense and not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000) for each subsequent offense. (ORC 1545.99)

Many drone owner/operators question the legality of the state law, saying only the FAA can issue laws about the use of drones.  Some also claim that the space above the ground is under FAA control, and so if a drone takes off from non-park land, it can be flown anyplace the owner wants to fly it.  The FAA does regulate air space in all parts of the country, but in most places, this is only for the air above a certain elevation, which I think is 500 feet above the ground or any structure on it.  There are also restrictions on how close you can fly to structures (such as water towers, antennas, etc.)    Some people claim because of the conflicts of FAA and state drone laws, the "in sight" part of the FAA regulations would require that if the "outside the park" logic is true, a person would have to launch the drone, and then travel with it (in a car or walking or whatever) to the area of the beach.  The same actions would be required in reverse in order to land the drone.

Now just because it is not legal to fly a drone over a person, that does not mean whoever is running it cares what the regulations are.  Remember CB radios?  They had extensive rules but hardly anyone cared what they were and even fewer followed them.  The worst the FCC could do if you violated a CB radio rule was confiscate you radio!

A second point is that I am not sure what "over" a person means.  Does it mean directly over the person, but five feet to the side is okay.  Another point is who will enforce these rules?  I believe the state rules could be enforced by the park rangers or a state trooper, but most probably are unfamiliar with the law, so enforcement may be sketch or not consistent form park to park.  There are also a bunch of other FAA and non-park state rules which might apply in some situations also.  Some cities and other municipal districts have established additional drone operation laws, which may or may not be applicable.


JM_Runs #312

Re:Caesar Creek Beach Ohio

Date Posted:06/20/2018 07:28:54

In the boating world the Feds and States have concurrent overlapping jurisdiction, I suspect the same would be true for aircraft. After all, aircraft law is derived from Marine law.   

I think the rule about 'not over people who are out in the open' - is intended for safety.  So if power was cut, and the drone side-slipped into people, then that was too close.

If there are no actual rules or guidelines, a reasonable presumption might be not within 50 feet horizontally and not within a cone of 45% extending up from the subject. Based on a guess that when trouble happens the average drone has a glide slope of 45% or less. 

It would make sense for dones, on loss of control signal, to hover in place if they have GPS, if not then make a controlled vertical descent.  

The Swan #313

Re:Caesar Creek Beach Ohio

Date Posted:06/21/2018 01:52:41

 Thanks ohiothonger, I'll be sure and let the droneigan know that I need to see his permit or I'm calling the Ranger.That ought to result in an interesting conversation anyway.
This was a young guy around early 20's and he was spying on everyone wearing less than board shorts.
I'm guessing videoing little kids might be an infraction of some sort also.
I left my celly in my car so I was incommunicado, when I was leaving,  he was packing it up also.


Mary0826 #314

Re:Caesar Creek Beach Ohio

Date Posted:06/22/2018 05:14:30

 I am glad that someone looked up the FAA and State Drone laws.  (Thanks OHIOTHONGER!)  As with any law, you will have a better chance of getting police or other enforcement to understand your argument if you can site the specific law by name or reference number (ORC for Ohio Revised Code as a reference.)  You should also have the exact wording of the law, not editing it in any way to show the enforcement person.  Such references can make a law enforcement person do a 180 on a situation like this since he or she is supposed to enforce the law, and failure to enforce it could be held against the officer if a litigation came up at a later time.  Remember that the police, rangers, or whomever are there to ENFORCE the law and not to decide what laws are applicable.  That is the job of the courts.  An enforcement person can ticket or have a person charged with a crime, but the person has the right to take it to the courts if they don't agree or thing the law does not apply to their situation.

ithongit #315

Re:Caesar Creek Beach Ohio

Date Posted:06/25/2018 04:18:15

 Was at Caesars Creek on Sunday.  It was a really nice day, not too hot, lots of sun, but the occasional cloud to make things interesting.  Not as many cheeky bikinis as other times I have been there this year.  Only two young women in true thongs and one guy in a baggy.  There were not as many people there as I might have expected, either.  Randy and I went to the marina to get info on where we can put the pontoon boat for about a week.  Randy and Mark worked most of the winter to get this home made thing ready for a good life as a nicer boat.  Can  you believe it?  All the boat slips have been rented for the whole season!  I would think they would keep a few opened for daily/weekly people, but I guess not.  (You can only camp 2-weeks straight.  Again, a move to only let "rich" people use the park.)  They have finally put in a more direct (not very rough) path from the beach to the marina.  The old path took you blocks out of the way and most of the trip was on old farming roads.  I complained about this many times, again that the marina was isolating themselves for the rich only.  

Randy and I both wore our g-strings to the marina, and I went topfree.  The younger people working there seemed perfectly at ease with our swimwear.  One of the male employees said "nice tan" to me, which was a pretty odd comment since I have very little tan this year.  On the way out, some young lady who was coming in with an older woman said "see, I told you they were legal" and then said to Randy "cute suit".  A man who had parked his car in the parking lot at the top of the ramp as we came up from the water level stopped us and started in with the "I don't really have any problem with what you are wearing" comments.  Whenever I hear this I just wait for the objection to come.  This time, he continued and said he wished he and his girlfriends could have dressed this way when they were our age.  (They probably could.)

We will be going to the Canadian Rockies starting next week end, and I will try to update about what we find there.

Traci
MNluvthongs #316

Re:Caesar Creek Beach Ohio

Date Posted:06/29/2018 05:44:22

 You folks should try Minneapolis' Lake Calhoun. Always people wearing thongs there now. Not much of a beach but good views and an exploding thong scene. I once saw 8 thongs there on Thomas Beach.
The Swan #317

Re:Caesar Creek Beach Ohio

Date Posted:06/30/2018 06:12:16

 I've been up to the lake no problems thonging.Saw some topless women and some thongers both men and women.
davyj1 #318

Re:Caesar Creek Beach Ohio

Date Posted:07/09/2018 11:59:59

 Great story about Lake Loramie, Mary.  (sorry this post is so late)  How great it would be if more parents would take the same attitude as the mom in your story!
The Swan #319

Re:Caesar Creek Beach Ohio

Date Posted:07/19/2018 02:52:28

 I've been surrounded by folks recently. I set up when not too many people are on the beach and then folks come and set up around me. Thonging really appears to be a non-issue this year. Also There is a concerted effort to get rid of the geese and the goose poop. I've watched the Rangers harass the geese in effort to clear them off the beach.
JM_Runs #320

Re:Caesar Creek Beach Ohio

Date Posted:07/20/2018 01:54:07

 Geese poop is nothing. You should try a tribe of full grown Iguanas.
ithongit #321

Re:Caesar Creek Beach Ohio

Date Posted:07/20/2018 12:34:48

 I have been to beaches where they have dogs to chase the geese away.  We saw this once on our trip to the Canadian Rockies so far.  They are some sort of smart herding dogs, and the ranger lets them out of the car, they run around and scare the birds off, then they come back ant (I assume) go to another beach.  The next time the ranger comes by on his patrol, the dog gets another  run.  I seriously doubt that the dogs ever bother the humans in any way, but they will take on the most aggressive birds.  The dog will circle around the birds, not letting them get into the water, and then chase them around until they take off and fly away.  I think some people are scared a little by the dogs, and as far as I know, there are no signs saying dogs are used.  Perhaps they need to put us signs that say something like "Rangers may use dogs trained to scare away  Canadian Geese".  They could also put something like this into any literature packets or as part of the park rules.  Randy, who seems to get along with animals especially well, has told me many times that dogs like having a job to do.  They would rather do their work than lay around the house waiting for someone to come home to feed them.  (Naturally, an older dog, like an older person) may need to slow down a bit, and eventually enter into doggy retirement.)'  Randy just told me that the dogs often used for things like this are border collies which have a particularly good sense on how to control other animals and pull them into groups.

MNluvthongs #322

Re:Caesar Creek Beach Ohio

Date Posted:07/21/2018 04:01:09

 Most people know to place decoys to scare away geese.
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