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maozer2003

Date Posted:11/28/2006 08:01:23Copy HTML

Hi everyonecheck out www.Muscleskins.com - an American company who do great very skimpy (unlined) styles.

I bought a couple recently and like them a lot.
The Microposer (MP) pushes you forwards a bit, very flattering.
The Microposer Extreme (MPX)has an extended front pouch (like Dore push-up) which is also great but maybe not beach-wear.
The material is very thin satin-finish nylon/lycra. As the sitesays, it feels painted on you.
The sizes are on the small side (which suits me).
There is also a somewhat more modest though still micro style, called PRO.
Phil
Ex_Member #1

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:11/28/2006 08:10:01Copy HTML

Hey Phil, thanks for the heads up on Muscleskins. Looks like some great new suits, hope they expand their product line.
sheer1delight #2

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:11/30/2006 05:29:19Copy HTML

Hi Phil

What about delivery on this website. Any probs.

Unfortunately even the most modest of the ranges would require getting the razor out! Even they appearvery  narrowly cut on the front. as I have experienced with  Prevailsport.com

As for the two extreme ranges it would appear that one  would need a large package to fill the pouch.

 

 

 

clubthongs #3

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:11/30/2006 11:22:50Copy HTML

"As for the two extreme ranges it would appear that one  would need a large package to fill the pouch."

As a swimwear designer myself, I can highly recommend this product.  They are of high quality and very flattering.  I would not actually recommend anything but the MPX as they are very tiny and the other lines were too small in the pouch.  The MPX are even a tad tight in the pouch yet they do fit.  Delivery is very fast.

maozer2003 #4

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:12/01/2006 01:34:51Copy HTML

Hi Sheer1. Yes, you might need to shave a bit. I am of small build & the MP style isn't too small for me, but very snug, so I can understand Clubthongs saying it's too small for him ( his Hillcrest designs seem to cater for the well-endowed!)   If I am at all "shrunk" then I don't fill out the MPX. As for delivery to UK, it's prompt & efficient.

Phil

John Howard #5

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:12/01/2006 10:23:08Copy HTML

Phil,

thanks for the information.

It seems to me that the MP and perhaps the P products would be very similar to the Dore "low cut" lines.

Has anyone been able to compare MuscleSkins MP and P to Dore "Low Cuts", and how do they rate? 

Also, apparently the 3/4 back range could be a good alternative for those beach days when a thong is not appropriate (too many children, the in laws decided to come with us, or too many Mother Theresa of Calcuta  families around);  I wonder if they would be better than Dore's 6 inches back,  I ended up wearing them as a thong pulling them up because they offered too little coverage and kept coming in anyhow.

John Howard

beachfolks #6

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:12/02/2006 11:43:09Copy HTML

Where is the Muscleskins shop located? I have concern with these online outfits with no published address. Likely because I am of "the old generation"
Ex_Member #7

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:12/04/2006 12:27:39Copy HTML

I think they are in Miami, FL. I have some of the MPX thongs and they fit like a glove and the darker colors are not see through although up close and wet they might as well be. Not sure if I'd wear it anywhere except the back yard pool though, since it doesn't leave anything to the imagination. The regular MP is a little more conservative, but not much.
maozer2003 #8

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:12/05/2006 06:05:47Copy HTML

Hi John

In reply to your observations/questions:

The Muscleskins are similar to low-cut Dores, about the same coverage. The MPX pushes you forward like the Dore push-up pouch. But Muscleskins material is thinner than Dore, and satin finish rather than gloss or matt. The Muscleskins Rio back is very brief - you would probably have a similar problem with it "coming in" as with the Dore brief backs, at least at the bottom - the top of the back flares out.

Phil

thinthong #9

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:12/05/2006 12:33:53Copy HTML

Just ordered 2 MPXs on Saturday.  I will let you know how they fit as soon as they arrive.  Can't wait!

sheer1delight #10

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:12/05/2006 06:44:49Copy HTML

Phil

Have decided to have a go with PRO style and ordered a black pair and a white pair with rio back. They look skimpy enough. Alas none of the photos show a full on view from the front. I await with interest their arrival. If they do the job there are plenty more colours to choose from!

Regards

sheer1delight

sheer1delight #11

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:12/24/2006 03:30:48Copy HTML

 

 

Maozer 2003

 

My muscleskins order has just arrived. One of each  - black and white Pro type with Rio Backs Yes they are small but well fitting-probably made on the small side of medium. A slight use of razor needed unless you wear them back to front in which case you can get away with shaving and havean ecen smaller rio back! When worn correct way round the back stayed in place perfectly..

Nice to have rear centre seam. Nice material with a nice finish.

They will do as underwear as well.

Might venture next time with next skimpiest style.

I quite like look of denim and copper materials. I hope they bring even more materials and colours on board.

Might even risk a thong style as well as full or rio for pool.

Thanks for bringing this supplier to attention of board.

Regards

jenny12345 #12

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:12/27/2006 11:18:02Copy HTML

Good day all. Has anyone tried the www.muscleskins.com  swimwear?  I bought the MP ( Micro-Poser) thong, good fit and great colors.  But you need to buy one size larger that Dore's suits.  Questions:  How's the MPX (Micro-Poser eXtreme) fit?  The web site shows your package lifted way out in front, does the suit fit like the picture?  Also, I like Dore's full back bikinis, does the MP / MPX bikini have the same full back fit?  Thank you.
Ex_Member #13

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:12/27/2006 08:45:41Copy HTML

Yes, it fits like the picture, your stuff will be out there. I don't think I could wear one on the beach.
sol_y_mar #14

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:12/29/2006 09:35:59Copy HTML

I have been to the Muscleskins.com website and plan on buying one of their suits. I do have concerns on how they fit, the MP thong looks similar to the 3D thong made by Dore. I understand that the material is very thin and sheer in the lighter colors. I would be interested in reading more feedback on this line of suits.
maozer2003 #15

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:01/02/2007 11:12:02Copy HTML

Hi to Jenny12345 and sol y mar: - for more feedback, have a look at the thread I started about Muscleskins - just a couple of items below this one in the Swimwear section.

In reply to query about fullback style - it is a full back, good coverage, tapers down towards the bottom but stays in place - and has a centre seam for extra fit.

   Happy New Thonging Year!

Maozer 

 

JM_Runs #16

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:01/03/2007 05:07:17Copy HTML

I didn't like the full back, they don't fit me well. Lots of butt cleavage.
JM_Runs #17

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:01/04/2007 07:43:31Copy HTML

I just ordered a pair myself the mpx style with the full back so I hope that it fits okay.
etchiman69 #18

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:01/04/2007 12:08:18Copy HTML

I first ordered the Extreme with a Rio back in medium because I usually like a snugger fit, but it was a little too snug.
It did fit as shown on the web site, however.

I then ordered a full-back poser and two Rio-back posers in large.
I love em. I even swam laps in one of the Rio-backs last night at the public pool. It took a little daring, but there was hardly anyone in the pool and it's a short walk from the dressing room to the pool.

I wish I could wear them all the time when I swim laps, but I have to be a little more conservative when there are more people in the pool.

I would definitely wear the Extreme suit to a beach. You stick out a bit, but it feels so free and non-constricting.

JM_Runs #19

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:01/06/2007 08:53:14Copy HTML

Just got mine the other day and I must say the fit is snug REAL snug. I got the MPX and yeah it pushes you out there but I think you might be able to get away with it on the beach especially if you were DORE swimwear. I think I might get a size bigger or do some more squats other than that I think it fits perfect. I plan on getting some more of MPX line and get one or two of the MP line.
sheer1delight #20

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:01/09/2007 09:11:12Copy HTML

There used to be loads of muscleskins microwear on ebay.com for sale until the last few days. Now there is nothing. I have only ever bought direct from muscleskins.com but I did notice that ebay site had different colours including leopard and wet look material items for sale. Is that old stock or something. I am only aware of muscleskins site since this topic opened. Perhaps older site had this gear.

I quite like what I have ordered and received so far. Black and white  PRO style. However it would be great if there were more materials such as metallics. and wet look. Iam thinking of ordering copper.Has anyone experience of that colour.

I did order copper capri from Prevail but it was nothing like what was in their catalogue or web site!

clubthongs #21

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:01/09/2007 11:00:26Copy HTML

"Iam thinking of ordering copper.Has anyone experience of that colour."

The copper is tighter that the other fabrics so I would order 1 size up from your usual size.  I have an MPX thong in copper and, while I love the look, it is very tight, tighter than most of their thongs.

justenough #22

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:01/09/2007 11:11:51Copy HTML

I've purchased the muscleskins items on ebay and from their website, they used to offer tights and squarecuts on ebay, but i've never seen it on the website. I haven't seen it on ebay lately either.  Their customer service is very good and they respond to questions quickly. Their policy is listed as no returns or exchanges, but my first order was too small and they exchanged it without any hassle at no extra charge. Their sizing does run on the SMALL side.  Their fabrics are pretty slick!  Although I think the lighter colors are too sheer for the beach, the darker colors work OK.  Meanwhile I have a lot of muscleskins underwear. I got my last light colored suit from them with a lining so I could wear it at the pool.  I love it!  I've also noticed that you get a  tan thru the suits!  The material is incredibly thin.  It feels like you're naked.  You have to do a pretty good shave job to wear any of their stuff though because you get just enough frontal coverage to keep you legal....not a milimeter more!  I bought  a metallic MPXT thong on ebay a few months ago, it fit like the picture, but it is a heavier material....I like their satin finish swimwear better.  I took one of their light blue MPX thongs to a nude beach and never got naked, the suits have a fun fit and the MPX  is like wearing viagra.  They do have other colors, but you have to ask.  I don't think their web design people are on the ball.  They should show more of their color choices. But, their customer service guy is good about giving advice.  Their delivery time seems a little erratic.  I've received my orders as quickly as 2 days and as late as 10 during christmas, but they refunded my shipping for the delay.  They are still quicker than most.  I've only seen muscleskins once in a retail store in Ft. Lauderdale but the price was double their prices on the web site.  Also be careful when buying on ebay, I've seen some of their suits go over $60 and tights for over $130, that's stupid when you can get the same thing directly from the website.  I asked about the same tights and got them for $75.

jenny12345 #23

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:01/13/2007 02:41:36Copy HTML

Good mornijng all.  Has anybody tried the bronze, gunmetal or tangerine colors?  Going to buy 2 MPX's, would like some help.  thank you
justenough #24

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:01/13/2007 05:24:59Copy HTML

Hi jenny,  I've gotten items in all 3 of those colors.  All of those colors are in the same fabric...very thin.  It really works well for the MPX items.  The bronze and gunmetal don't show thru too much, the tangerine shows through a lot when wet.  The gunmetal is very cool.  It is dark grey, but seems to have a slight purplish tint, very nice.  Good luck!

jenny12345 #25

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:01/13/2007 05:36:42Copy HTML

thank you, I'll be ording the bronze and gunmetal
nordic_god #26

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:01/15/2007 10:33:11Copy HTML

Those suits do not look comfortable. Being unlined doesn't help either. Maybe they'd be find for posing for pictures and such, but I can't see getting one for everyday use. For that, I'd need lining and more frontal coverage and plenty of support.
chopchop #27

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:01/15/2007 09:46:38Copy HTML

It's GREAT to find this message board! 

 I saw their stuff on eBay but have never heard of muscleskins before.  The seller had excellent feedback so I ordered a couple of suits from muscleskins.com.  I ordered them Wednesday and got them Saturday!  I ordered two SMALL suits.  A Black PRO Bikini and a Red MP Thong.  Wow!  They're HOTand they fit like a glove!  They are snug, but quite comfy.  If they were looser, I would be afraid that they wouldn't keep me covered....they are tiny suits, but the design works well to keep you legal.  I'm going to Jamaica next month and can't wait to try them out!  Looks like I'll have time to try one of the MPX suits too before I go.  Do they really fit like the pictures? Do they really throw it all out front?  And more importantly....do you think you could get away with wearing one in Jamaica?

clubthongs #28

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:01/15/2007 10:53:40Copy HTML

"Do they really fit like the pictures? Do they really throw it all out front?  And more importantly....do you think you could get away with wearing one in Jamaica?"  Yes, yes and yes!
justenough #29

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:01/26/2007 03:26:02Copy HTML

Muscleskins seems to be back on ebay again!  They have some cool pants  and bike shorts that i haven't seen on their website.  I've seen their stuff listed by a few sellers, but JUPITER708 seems to be offering the items exclusively now.  In exchange for the tip, please don't bid on the brown jammers.
glutesie #30

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:01/29/2007 08:34:38Copy HTML

Hi all:

I'm going to order some muscle MP thongs.  After reading this thread, I want to be very sure of sizing.  I'm a 31 waist, medium Dore fits me well.  If anyone else out there is my size and already has muscleskins thongs, please respond soon.  I need to know whether I should stick with medium or order large, I don't want to screw this order up !!

thanks !

sheer1delight #31

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:01/30/2007 09:00:54Copy HTML

Clubthongs and others

Just received my copper pro with rio back. Twelve days in the mail to UK. Yes very brief and not as stretchy as black or whiite colours I have previously ordered. I like the colour but this brief does sit lower than those mentioned and does not stay in place as much as other stretchy materials. Think I would try full back next time. Maybe a sizeup would be better but I would be worried that large would be too big and not stay up. Definitely the medium of these does run on the small size.

Not sure if I could wear these poolside but wil definitely do as underwear

What about anyone who has ordered next size up from small or medium- what do they think? Did they stay up or was next size just too big.

Is it worth risking it

Even with these misgivings this is the best gear I have seen in a long time.

 

sheer1delight

chopchop #32

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:01/31/2007 09:07:50Copy HTML

Hi glutesie,

I'm a 30-31 waist and the smalls fit me well.  I haven't trried the other sizes, but I definitely wouldn't order  large. 

Got my yellow MPX in the mail the other day....3 days from placing my order, not counting the weekend.  Man oh man!  what a fit!  Fun, I'll order another soon, but I think I'm a bit too shy to wear it on a beach, you have to be "aroused" for it to fit right, but it doesn't take long to get that way once you put it on.  It definitely "throws it all out front".  I think I'll stick top the MPs for the beach.  It's a hot fit without being too sleezy.

jenny12345 #33

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:02/16/2007 01:13:31Copy HTML

Good morning all.  Just looked at the Muscleskins web site.  The new Burgundy Red "spitersilk" MPXT looks interesting.  Is the spitersilk really lighter and thinner than their other suit material? I have their MPT, very nice fit and quality. Also, it looks like one might need to sport some wood to get into and wear the MPX suits? True?  Looking forward to hteir 2007 suites.  Later
sheer1delight #34

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:02/16/2007 07:59:58Copy HTML

Just received a large copper pro rio back. I found medium very tight and starting do delaminate. because of the tightness. The larger size is only marginally bigger. The rear is only a couple of mm wider each side. Front seams almost same size as medium. Overall it is not as tight but marginally so . I was worried it would be falling off me. It certainly won't. Material is beautifully smooth.

Just received medium GI Joe Vegas Pro with bronze inserts. Beautiful material.

Also treated myself to bronze, gunmetal and wine rio pro.Again beautiful and tight fitting.

Lastly I bought a microposer black rio. Yes it does gather everything up and hold you in.

There are even nicer materials-wet look python, metallic sapphire, liquid silver on ebay with seller jupiter708. I am trying to arrange their purchase. will let you what they are like on as soon as I get them. Alas they are full backs. I still like the the look of them but I prefer rio but full back might be better at some pools.

Overall these are the best briefs I have found on the internet. The material is nice.

I haven't ventured into true thong styes yet but I am very tempted.

Regards

Jman71 #35

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:02/17/2007 03:41:26Copy HTML

I was thinking of ordering a PRO series Rio & Thong and have some questions about sizing. My waist is 35 inches, would the medium size be too small? I like a snug but not tight fit. But I'm also afraid that the large size might be too loose. Are there any other experiences out there regarding sizing?
simpleZ #36

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:02/18/2007 04:33:18Copy HTML

go for a large
etchiman69 #37

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:02/18/2007 11:48:57Copy HTML

Definitly go for large.

I thought the same thing you did and bought a medium because I usually buy a medium or even a small depending on the suit, i.e. N2N suits, but Muscleskins is not quite as stretchy but stretchy enough. Trust the sizing chart.

simpleZ #38

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:02/18/2007 03:18:18Copy HTML

have anybody recieved their Burgundy Red "spitersilk" MPXT yet? Any reviews?
sheer1delight #39

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:02/18/2007 05:04:38Copy HTML

Jman71

I would go for larger size. As website says they are cut for athletic build. Anyway the large size isn't that substantially bigger. There is no way they are going to disappear round your ankles all of a sudden. If in doubt just try one pair of the larger size. I am sure you will appreciate the fit, quality and colour of material and will soon be back for more.

These are the best swim briefs I have bought  in years and will be buying many more.

Are they the male equivalent of Wickedweasel.com?

Regards

sheer1delight

JM_Runs #40

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:02/23/2007 12:55:07Copy HTML

Guys, I'am interested in purchasing the MPX.  My concern is it necessary to be aroused for the MPX to look right?  Some people on this board mentioned just wearing the MPX kept them aroused, hence look good.  Is this really true for the people that have the MPX?

 

Thanks

Thongguy

JM_Runs #41

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:02/23/2007 04:34:35Copy HTML

I too am interested in Muscleskins but have a sizing question for the group.

I normally wear a MEDIUM Dore thong, but wear a SMALL bikini (the mediums seem a bit too loose in bikini style)

What size would you recommend I buy? I was wanting to get SMALL, but want it to fit snug.

I am a size 31 waist normally.

Thanks,
Frank
chopchop #42

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:02/27/2007 12:29:24Copy HTML

Thongboy, go for the small.  I'm your size and they fit me great!  I've noticed that the waists stretch more on the thongs than the bikinis, I haven't tried the Rios.  I bought the vegas bikini also, very nice fabric!   It is a little sheer, but I'd wear it at the pool with no problem, the pattern disguises the sheerness except up close.  Very nice quality and a very sexy fit while being modest enough in public.  I also got the Valentine spidersilk yesterday (I think I'm addicted to their stuff....I can't wait for summer to wear these on the beach!!!!).  Interesting fit with the spidersilk, It seems thinner than their other fabrics and has a glistening sheen to it at times.  I was not disappointed.

I also tried their Sportster tights in the saddle color.  WOW!  I think they fit even better than their suits.  They look glued on with nice detailing.  It is the same thin fabric as their suits, so they are extremely thin, but the overall effect is superb!  I hated to take them off, so I wore them as long underwear.

I can't wait for them to come out with the spring stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I may need a raise to pay for all of this. I want it all.

JM_Runs #43

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:02/27/2007 09:16:27Copy HTML

ChopChop,

Thanks for the advice! I am definitely looking to get those tights too! They look great for the gym and running.

- Frank
jenny12345 #44

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:03/02/2007 08:37:17Copy HTML

Hey Chopchop.  I have been waiting for a review of the spitersilk.  Thank you. I'll be ordering a MP bikini and MPT in spitersilk.
wr1944 #45

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:03/05/2007 11:01:25Copy HTML

I just received three thongs from Muscleskins. I did order one model MP and two PRO's. Two in white and seafoam (I do not see the difference) and one in jeans-colour. I have ordered as usual my normal size Medium and they fit perfect. I heard a few guys complain (on other groups) that Muscleskins were very small but not to me. They are in the range of a Dore low cut front. The fabric is elastic and formfitting, a little more than Dore's Lycra but not as thin as AlphaModa's fabric. The light colours are very sheer when wet but I will check that under the shower in a few moments. A few days after ordering the shipping was confirmed by e-mail and a week later it arrived in Holland. Very professional. Now I have to get a suntan before I can wear the light suites with confidence.
John Howard #46

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:03/06/2007 06:28:21Copy HTML

To wr1944,

I"m glad you decided to try Muscleskins;   you are also a keen Dore wearer as myself, and Muscleskins seems to be a very good quality product (according to the images on their website and according to the opinions of other members of this board).     So far now,  I've been very happy with all my Dore's low cut thongs (that's definitely my favourite style and woudn't go for any of the other ultra revealing styles).    But I've also been curious about Muscleskins.

Please let us know your opinions about Muscleskins, how do  they fit, (you say the front cut is almost the same as Dore's low cut thong),  sizing, etc, to have an idea of how do  they compare to the good old Dore's.   (Anyhow, I will probably buy one or two for next summer).

John Howard

wr1944 #47

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:03/06/2007 07:48:27Copy HTML

I have tried the thongs of Muscleskins I received yesterday. I have also tried them in wet conditions. I could have done that on the local beach because the rain was pouring all day. But with just 8 degr Centigr. not very healthy.
Results:
Each thong was individually packed in a little plastic envelope and send in a plain envelope with a customs reference stating: gift, clothing, commercial value $18.00. No further indication of the contents.
The thongs have no sewed label but a paper tag with the model and size info, attached with a wire loop.
The fabric is thinner than the standard Lycra of Dore but a little less elastic. Size Medium fitted me just as good as the thongs of Dore or Alphamoda. The dimensions are like the Dore low cut thong. The lower part of the front of all three thongs are about 10 mm (1/2 inch) smaller than the Dore models. The stitching is simple but good.
I have ordered one MP model and two PRO models. The MP model has a little push-out effect compared with the Dore lc and the Pro models are a little more compressing. Your package is a little flattened when wearing downwards. Because of the size of the front, another direction seems impractible to me.
The sides are about 1/2 inch wide with a tendency to roll over. The backstrap is rather wide, about 1 inch, but with the roll over tendency, it is hardly noticeble.
The wearing is comfortable, no tight parts and I feel, I can walk for miles with each of the thongs without any sore spots or chafings.
I had the MP in white and the PRO's in seafoam and jeans colour. I did see no difference between white and seafoam but that maybe my fault. Muscleskins states that the whites are slightly sheer dry and very transparent when wet. Dry I could not see any sheer effect, but wet it is another story. Then the whites are very transparent indeed. But I like that effect.
I am happy with these thongs but in the future I might be ordering just one or two more in another colour in PRO but because of the limeted range of models, I stick to Dore or AlphaModa.
John Howard #48

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:03/07/2007 06:45:32Copy HTML

Thanks wr, that was a great feedback.

John Howard

Popeye1 #49

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:03/07/2007 06:49:14Copy HTML

curious, i ordered a thong from these guys. It fits well and looks great but I think that it won't hold up to the way I use thongs. The elastic seems very weak and I think it will become baggy in no time. if I wear it for swimming and  running it seems it won't stay on very well. If you acutally wear , as I do, a thong for the entire day and use it for swimwear and athletic wear, I think you'll be a little dissapointed in these thongs.  If you want one for walking around the house they'll work fine, but I think there's better made grments out there. Popeye.

wr1944 #50

Re:Muscleskins

Date Posted:03/07/2007 07:46:54Copy HTML

I will not use the Muscleskins thong for any atlethics, I am not the type for that. It will be used for beachwalks and an occasional dip in the North Sea or the Mediterranian. To avoid tanlines I change regularly my thongs and strings, even when beachwalking. Beside that, I mainly sun on my local nude beach. Before ordering any other Muscleskins, I will test the thongs on the beach this season and will give you my findings.
I can hardly wait to hit the beach.
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