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mainly_bikini

Date Posted:06/13/2018 12:08:36Copy HTML

I was wondering how both male and female members felt about pouch styles for men. These range from fairly conservative looking smooth and fitted fronts, to "torpedo" suits and everything in-between. Do men with more conservative / moderate pouch style bikini/thongs look more approachable / friendly? Are the torpedo suits silly or just the male version of the push up? I personally find myself gravitating to more conservative suits in the front and feel like I get the best reaction from them, although moderate pouch suits also don't seem to get an overly negative or shocked reaction.
jglgmp #1

Re:When is a pouch too extreme?

Date Posted:06/13/2018 03:26:23Copy HTML

 Pouch suits are only to extreme if that dont provide complete coverage. Although there are exceptions . In my opinion torpedo suits are silly but if a person like them who am i to judge. Borat suits are COMPLETLY STUPID and i will judge!!!!
navythong #2

Re:When is a pouch too extreme?

Date Posted:06/13/2018 04:43:50Copy HTML

I think it depends on where the suits are worn. In my opinon that makes quite a difference.A pouch like a Musclskins poser is maybe suitable for a family beach, a torpedo sure isn't.
But if worn on a more quiet part of the beach, where you have plenty of space for yourself, for me a torpedo is no problem.If no other beach visitors are offended, what could be the problem.
I think that some torpedo suit wearers like to be seen by other people. I can imagine that people who don't like minimal swimwear find torpedo suits silly.Useually I wear a poser to the beach and leave the tordedo styles for suntanning in my own back-yard.

MrFalcon #3

Re:When is a pouch too extreme?

Date Posted:06/13/2018 05:33:40Copy HTML

 I bought a thong recently out of curiosity that holds my penis out in front of me so that even if I am not excited it kind of looks like I am. I would not wear this in public - it's too ostentatious/sexually suggestive.
Comfythong1 #4

Re:When is a pouch too extreme?

Date Posted:06/13/2018 05:36:05Copy HTML

 Personally, I’m not a huge fan of pouch of torpedo suits. As a male, I think it draws too much attention to the genital area IMO.  I wouldn’t have a problem with someone else wearing it of course. But I can see how a place with vague swimsuit rules may ask you to leave the premises.  I suppose it’s similar to some micro g-strings for women. If details of genitalia are clearly visible, perhaps a more conservative suit is more appropriate in a family-friendly setting.  Most of my thongs look like briefs from the front so I can’t speak  from personal experience. But I’ve never had any issues wearing my thongs at hotel pools, beaches, or at the health club inside and outside pools.  
Cloydene #5

Re:When is a pouch too extreme?

Date Posted:06/13/2018 08:26:31Copy HTML

 Even the most petite of guys stand out to varied degrees, so I've never understood the protruding styles. Besides, they are terribly uncomfortable under pants for everyday wear from my experience. Yes, those that wear them in public do so for additional attention. I do see them in a way as the female push-up bra counterpart. I'd rather disappoint gawkers with my natural appearance of my genitalia than give a faux impression.
RapidBlue #6

Re:When is a pouch too extreme?

Date Posted:06/13/2018 09:55:07Copy HTML

 For me a good pouch suit works best. I feel secure and not all smashed in. Flat front suit are too uncomfortable and I have a hard time staying with in the lines, sort of speak. While I prefer an enhanced pouch some of them go to far for public in my mind. I and not going to be wearing a torpedo suit in public. That crosses the line for me. Anything designed to be provocative or erotic I will save for the bedroom. I’ve seen much talk about baggies here. While interesting, that is something I will not be wearing to a beach or pool. That’s just me.  
RapidBlue #7

Re:When is a pouch too extreme?

Date Posted:06/13/2018 09:55:20Copy HTML

 For me a good pouch suit works best. I feel secure and not all smashed in. Flat front suit are too uncomfortable and I have a hard time staying with in the lines, sort of speak. While I prefer an enhanced pouch some of them go to far for public in my mind. I and not going to be wearing a torpedo suit in public. That crosses the line for me. Anything designed to be provocative or erotic I will save for the bedroom. I’ve seen much talk about baggies here. While interesting, that is something I will not be wearing to a beach or pool. That’s just me.  
cmp304 #8

Re:When is a pouch too extreme?

Date Posted:06/14/2018 08:41:29Copy HTML

There needs to be some sort of pouch or contour to be comfortable.  If a man wears a  brief swimsuit of just about any style there is going to be a bulge.  My biggest complaint with many racer and square cut suits is that they are flat in front and I feel kind of smahed in there.  I think the flat front styles show more outline of my ***** than a briefer more contoured thong?  Same is true of any type of bike type shorts.  However I avoid the extreme torpedo and push out styles.  I routinely wear Skinz Stuffit thongs and g strings on public family beaches with no problems.
Mary0826 #9

Re:When is a pouch too extreme?

Date Posted:06/15/2018 03:19:44Copy HTML

 There are a number of factors to consider.  Some women (especially those who are borderline about men in thongs to start with) might find a torpedo suit to be pushing things too hard.  Many parents might also find it inappropriate, even if they accept total nudity.  There might also be laws that could enter into the issue.  For example, it is illegal for a man in Indiana to appear to be in a turgid state.  This does not mean that every single law authority in Indiana will ticket or arrest a man who appears to be sporting a woody, but men have been sited from what I understand even if they are aroused or appear aroused in tight jeans.

I believe that a man should take these items into account before wearing a torpedo suit, and there certainly are places and times when none of these things might be an issue.  In fact, there may be places and times when it might be okay, fun, or whatever to wear such a swimsuit.  A private party, boat, pool or beach may be places where a man can get away with this.  If he is with others, if they have no issues in these places, then all the better.  Personally, we might make the same arguments about some women's swimwear.  Some people find topfree women to be offensive.  Woman's suits with just a string over the private parts may go too far for many people or in many places.  Anus exposure is another area that also required a similar amount of thought.  Some places, like Ohio, the anus is not considered a sexual organ and since laws only apply to sexual organs then legally they might be legal on all state beaches.  At a "thong friendly" beach like Ceaser's Creek, they might cause little or no stir.  At the same time, there are places where they might, and while a person might be legal to show off their anus, that does not mean that others will like seeing it and there is always the possibility that some hot-shot authority type might create a hassle or otherwise goof up a person's day.  (Yes, I know that many people get sexual gratification from anal stimulation, but many also get stimulation through the mouth, and I don't know of any place in the USA where it is illegal to show one's mouth to others.)

From a personal standpoint, I do not find torpedo suits to be offensive when I would would not be offended by seeing that same man in the buff..  But I do not need to see the man standing at attention to admire his equipment.  A man in a torpedo suit, like a man showing himself off for hours ready for action appears to be bragging on himself, and I don't care for anyone who has to brag that much.  I don't like people who constantly have to tell me how smart they are, how much they make, how important their job is, how many degrees they have, what a great athlete they area or whatever.  If the topic comes up, and they want to discuss these things, they can do so without making the the thing they are proud of  the prime focus of their discussion.  A constant reminder of their anatomical gifts (or lack of gifts) does not seem to be to be much more than bragging.  Women can be braggers too by showing off their bodies too much all the time.  There are times and places where being more conservative is appropriate.

Some people will associate torpedo thongs as being something a pervert would wear, and make life hard for those who want to wear them.  Wearers could get too much negative feedback and wind up getting the look made illegal, just like thongs have been made illegal lots of places.  There is no "right" or "wrong" answer which would apply in all situations or at all times.
gog5150 #10

Re:When is a pouch too extreme?

Date Posted:06/15/2018 01:49:37Copy HTML

 Well said Mary!  Your post are always very thoughful. I personally would not wear a torpedo suit but that's just my preference.  All of my suits are made by Skinzwear and all of them have the M46 front.  They are comfortable and narrow the way I prefer. 

Regarding Mary's statement "Some women (especially those who are borderline about men in thongs to start with)", years ago I received some great advice from ithongit.  She basically said, just be up front about my swimwear preference and ask the woman I am with if she would be uncomfortable with it while we lay out together.  Heeding that advice, no woman has ever said they would be, quite the opposite. However if I had worn a torpedo, I suspect the reaction may have been different. Who knows? 

In all the years I have worn thongs I have had only two negative reactions from women. One woman in her 30's had an obvious look of disgust at the neighborhood pool but did not say anything, and did not leave. The other instance, was a young woman in her early 20's at the same pool who laughed at me. She was alone, stayed for awhile, took a photo and then left. 

I think baggies and torpedo suits may sometimes push the limits for us guys with regards to the example we want to be setting to advance the cause of acceptance of men wearing minimal swimwear IMHO.  Having said that, if someone wants to wear them then so be it.  Whatever one is comfortable in. 

Lastly, maybe the general public is more accepting than we give them credit for?  Rapidblue seemed to have had a great experience in Denver this week.
Comfythong1 #11

Re:When is a pouch too extreme?

Date Posted:06/15/2018 11:19:13Copy HTML

 gog5150,  I think you’re right that reactions to ‘torpedo’ suits are prob much different. IMO they’re in a category of their own. The way genitals are accentuated enters bedroom category at times. I’ve worn thongs inmany places beaches, pools, hotels, resorts, etc. but I suspect if I’d worn a torpedo suit I’d be asked to cover up at some of them. When it comes to general public, I suspect people who might be ok with a moderate coverage thong may be uncomfortable with a torpedo suit. As for how extreme is too extreme, I d say if your swimsuit is made to make your penis look erect at all times, it’s probably too much. At that point the swimsuit is meant to draw attention to genitalia rather than just cover them.
OS777 #12

Re:When is a pouch too extreme?

Date Posted:06/16/2018 12:55:27Copy HTML

It seems most people have prejudices do to social conditioning.  If that old spinster Queen Victoria had not lost Albert at a young age English speaking nations would not have swallowed her hogwash Puritanical views, most of living humanity would not be dysfunctional in their perception of what they see when they view a human body.  Do Aboriginal peoples across this planet have the mental illnesses of judging others due to the degree or lack of in terms of textile coverage?  In early 20th century America woman's bare ankles were considered offensive. Muslim prohibitions on woman in contemporary times is little worse.  There again men make the decisions.  Governments and religions are fanatical in their efforts to control people, their thoughts, and actions. FIN
mack_back #13

Re:When is a pouch too extreme?

Date Posted:06/16/2018 07:31:06Copy HTML

OS777: Your reply must agree. 
Doubt anyone cares about history when they see some stranger wearing minimal clothing. Heck, i get yelled upon watering the grass and mowing the yard this afternoon, wearing only my short, shorts and nike sneakers. Yet i challenge any male in the neighbourhood or female for that matter, to show better toned physique then mine. While some just exclaim privately the neighbourhood kids are afraid of me that i'm scary guy they see, noticing my body. Sort depressing feeling that people don't find it normal seeing toned, tanned, fit dude on hot sunny day work landscaping his yard only as awkward. Blame political correctness that everyone needs to coverup because of the epidemic of overweight populous. Nobody has the business to flaunt themselves in public wearing less then a shirt, pants or dork shorts. If you decide to wear less then people leave you alone but vilify you as abnormal. Interesting progressive times we live in today... Unless your standing by the beach or pool wearing what i do it's okay but  holding a hose spraying my lawn is creepy...WTF! Suppose you need to be competing for mr. Olympia in having any business to show off your body only then your amusing freak show for entertainment of others. While anyone else can keep there clothes on, can't believe what society has become all because of the children... No wonder i give of  that sinister look upon the moms of the neighbourhood protecting there family and neighbourhood.
Only can imagine thinking about this post of what some of neighbourhood families visited the local pool or beach seeing me in poser thong would think then. Can't contemplate there various reactions  of me before my head would explode...
bmicro #14

Re:When is a pouch too extreme?

Date Posted:06/16/2018 12:15:45Copy HTML

 Navythong and Mary, I agree with your statements when you essentially say "It depends". Torpedo or other show-off thongs can be fun in an appropriate venue and can lead negative reactions, including arrest, in the wrong venue. Rather than trying to be absolutist in defining appropriateness, how about considering appropriateness for a specific venue? 
Comfythong1 #15

Re:When is a pouch too extreme?

Date Posted:06/16/2018 02:14:52Copy HTML

 OS777 I agree, people are too uptight about clothing and nudity and their bodies. I don’t think anyone on this board would have an issue with anyone wearing torpedo thongs in public. This has more to do with how society in general views such attire. That’s why I stated earlier that most people are accepting of modest thongs so we have to start somewhere to change the uptight and conservative views of the country. May be  torpedo thong at community pool is too much. Then one should wear a conservative thong with modest coverage and save the torpedo for a more secluded venue.
JM_Runs #16

Re:When is a pouch too extreme?

Date Posted:06/16/2018 10:24:00Copy HTML

I have a problem with people wearing a torpedo or rocket thongs in public. If you are allowed to go nude, just go nude.  If not then don't wave your shlong in peoples faces.

On public nude beaches there is a strict etiquette about not making the nude beach into a bathhouse. That means no making out or sex in public. It also means not peacocking around with a stiffie, or otherwise trying to draw sexual attention to your willy.

Men often complain about the lack of single women, and especially younger good looking women at nude beaches. But just watch from a distance and  you see the way so many men casually circle around like vultures, doing a couple of passes to look, before casually plopping down ten feet away. If the women takes a girlfriend along for support it does not help much, the vultures see it as two for the price of one.

Nude beaches should be family friendly. Nudist families should be able to bring their kids and not feel like they are surrounded by dirty old men who are only there to showing off their willies. The lack of kids on US nude beaches is because most men don't get this basic rule of nude beach etiquette.

I don't have a problem with nudity, or people holding hands in public, or making out in public. I think we need to encourage more honest displays of affection.  It brings me joy to see a gay couple holding hands while walking down the street. I think, I am glad my town is friendly enough, and open minded enough, that they feel safe here. While teens making out in school distracts others, and is not allowed, once outside the gates I think more teens should fell comfortable making out in public.
BUT there is a difference between public displays of affection between consenting people, and public displays of "I've got a willy, let me wave it around for you." - This is just a male ape advertising for sex. Mildly titillating when the monkeys do that in the zoo, but not appropriate for adult men in public spaces.

There are times when it is OK to wear a torpedo, rocket or push out thong, like at an adult pool or private party.  In a setting where adults are expecting the event to be sexually charged.

A torpedo or rocket thong is carefully crafted to separate the penis and make it stand out. It is engineered to show off. As men we must be self aware that we are biologically the sexually aggressive sex. Monkey displays of sexual aggression and prowess are not appropriate in public, around kids or in polite company. Public beaches and parks are not bathhouses. 

Most people don't care, or actually positively support my habit of wearingvery small thongs on the public beach, BECAUSE I am not making it sexual and not making it about my big willy. My thongs may be just g-strings with tiny fronts but they are close fitting, designed to cover, not display.

Think of it this way, if a man were to be caught nude he might put one hand down to cup and cover his penis and balls, a modest cover up. This is what a small mans thong does, cups and covers.
On the other hand, in private company a man may want to show off is member to his partner, in which case his hand would not cover, but encircle  the shaft and maybe squeeze it a little to show it off. This is what a torpedo or rocket suit does.

The golden rule seems to be you can go as small as you like so long as your junk is fully covered and you are not making it about a display of your parts. Then people will still act like the can't see your junk, so it is all OK.  As soon as you expose the ball, or shaft, or separate the shaft into a separate sleeve, or have a pouch that tries to push-out for display more than cover, people interoperate that as a sexual display.

Yes I have some a few PrevalSports ILP, but the top covering is not an aggressive push out pouch.

There are some very low cost g-strings coming out of China.  I have purchased quite a few. Some fit fine, but a number are sitting on the sewing pile, waiting till I get the serger running, so I can trim the excess bag of the front of the pouch. My thongs should up and cover, not push out unnecessarily.

How much bulge? Enough to cover and for you to be comfortable. Enough so the even a small g-string does not gape at the sides. Enough to cover your natural fall. Enough to cup and hold.

In my eyes too much is when the pouch is lose and floppy when you are naturally soft, or when it is constructed to push out and up.  No longer are things in a natural position, but lifted, squeezed and projected.

A push out pouch might be fine, like when used as underwear, where you want to create a bit of bulge under your running shorts, but even that can look a bit artificial and forced.  As pointed out by someone above, unless you have very lose shorts with a lot of float float pushout thongs under something else will quickly become uncomfortable.

Back to the orignal question: "When is a pouch too extreme?"

Like others I think suits cut with a totally flat front panel can be too restrictive and uncomfortable. This is less of a problem on a full cut suit but gets to be more of a problem as the suits get smaller.  If a small suit does not have a center seam then I probably will not buy one, because my assumption is the shape is fundamentally wrong:  A men's thong or g-string should have one or more vertical seams in the front, to create the above mentioned 'cupping' shape.  How much shape and space is going to depend on the anatomy of the man, and the creativity of the seamstress.

I think a normal pouch should be designed to hold in, or cover naturally, as a hand would.  Even if the hand were covering slightly more bulge caused by a built in cloth ring.  Yes there is a fine line between holding it all in, and pushing it all out. The same suit on one man may look very different on the next.

That does not mean every suit must be a 'point down' suit.  I think most teardrop suits generally look ridiculous, but there are a few vertical cut thongs that look good. However the point up suits that look good and appropriate are few and far between.  They are narrow, but not teardrop, and all hold the penis close to the body, not push it out like a flag waving in the wind.

I encourage all thongers to act normal. That means not making in an overtly sexual way, even if you do look sexy in a small well cut thong.

If you can forget or ignore you are wearing a small thong, many others will ignore the thong too.  Mothers with children will come and setup near by, and maybe become friends. Groups of women will invite you to join them. You are inviting them in, not cutting a sexually aggressive pose. You don't want to come off like a flasher who has lost his raincoat. 

Here I am talking about public beaches and parks.  If you are a gay man, cruising an adult gay party, then wear what you like. Although even there acting normal an approachable is probably a good idea. At Haulover nude beach last weekend I overheard two gay men talking about a man who was wearing a blue rubbery ring to make his manhood swell: Their opinion, was he was trying way to hard, and it was inappropriate for the public beach.

In the same way women only wear cone bras as a joke, on stage or in strip clubs, men should only wear push-out suits in the right venue, and when they can pull it in an adult setting . Women don't wear cone bras on the beach. Older women often wear a bra with underwire or structure to support their falling breasts. If you have been to a nude beach you will comprehend how far they can dangle when unrestrained.

Men don't need underwire or that uplift because the natural position is a dangle, not a flag pole or a shelf.  A properly cut thong is going to provide a little natural lift.  The key is keeping it looking reasonably natural, not forced.
( Rant Over ) 
tobias5711 #17

Re:When is a pouch too extreme?

Date Posted:06/18/2018 12:19:29Copy HTML

 JM I totally agree with you. I wear small g-strings and thongs, and like a center seam, otherwise the suit does not fit my body very well. I do not like for the pouch to expose me on the sides. I do have a few bulge pouch, but nothing to the extreme. A torpedo suit or a glove like suit, I will never wear, even to private parties. I can't imagine where I would ever wear one, that I could not legally go nude, and I would rather be nude in those cases. 
Even though I wear tiny suits, my equipment is  always completely covered. I do not try to hide, for that makes me seem as if I am doing something illegal or perverted. Most the time I forget I am wearing a small suit at the lake and just walk, raft or lay out like I would if I had on dork shorts.

I only remember 2 negative comments in the last 10 years, and one was from a teenager who had been watching me for over an hour, but when his friends noticed me, he made a negative comment, I think to hide the fact he was watching me. I have been wearing thongs for close to 30 years in public, and can't count the number of families who have seen me and then set up within 15 feet of me. Young kids look, then would rather go and play.
J_R_365 #18

Re:When is a pouch too extreme?

Date Posted:06/18/2018 02:18:08Copy HTML

 The color of the suit makes a difference, too. I have a number of Wolverine suits from Dubio. The pouch on these is very form-fitting, but does not really push out. One of them (which I got from their "sister store", US4Men) is in a blue "Confetti" print. It look very nice on me. One time I was wearing it, and a woman called me over to model it in front of her friends.
I decide to get one in a light solid color, as lighter color show the shape better. I got the lightest color of all, white.
I am somewhat torn about this one. It really looks painted on, and I think it looks fantastic. However, it also looks like I'm trying to make a statement I'm not trying to make. I'm sure it will get some use, but not every day.
Oddly, I have much less qualms about wearing the same suit in the big hole mesh. I guess with those, I  AM trying to make a statement, although, again not for everyday wear.
navythong #19

Re:When is a pouch too extreme?

Date Posted:06/18/2018 03:11:20Copy HTML

Just took a look at Dubio's web-site and their Wolverine suit. Wow that a tiny and narrow suit!The straps are also very narrow.
It is indeed not a push-out style, and I think I wouldn't wear it to a family beach.But since everything what needs to be covered is covered the pouch is not 'too extreme'.Do you also wear this one when going for a swim, or just for suntanning?
I have to admit: you have a lot of self-confidence!
Comfythong1 #20

Re:When is a pouch too extreme?

Date Posted:06/26/2018 01:59:19Copy HTML

 I think just because you can wear a torpedo suit doesn’t always mean  mean you should. And  it’s not just about self-confidence. If we all strive for mainstream acceptance of thong swimwear, wearing the most extreme suits everywhere possible may not be the best way to go about it.  
NudeNArizona #21

Re:When is a pouch too extreme?

Date Posted:07/01/2018 01:47:39Copy HTML

 I agree that a torpedo suit should not be worn to a family beach but I also agree that some places you can’t go nude and have to wear something. I’m sure there are members who would disagree with my choices at times like wearing baggies or open front G-strings which especially the open fronts are more extreme than torpedo suits but where I were these I am usually away from crowds and secondly I only have them on to show I’m not completely nude and most just assume I’m wearing a thong and walk on by. Have there been occasional instances where someone discovered my lack of frontal coverage? Yes, but this has usually been after some conversation and they chose to hang around and I would inform them before turning over. This also goes for what my wife has worn in the past as well
thongalactic #22

Re:When is a pouch too extreme?

Date Posted:07/02/2018 12:25:30Copy HTML

For the love of god, (1) make sure the pouch actually covers the genitals. No gaps along the side; the pouch should contact the groin and stay put. (2) The pouch *generally* should have a a mesh lining or double-ply construction. Lock that shit down. I think it's more attractive anyway. Liner-less pouches often show too much, in my opinion. I don't want people to see the precise contours of my genitals. I say "generally" though because different construction methods, fabric weights, fit, color, and pattern can combine to affect the way the garment looks. So, there may be some exceptions where I can get away with it. (3) Peacocking in a torpedo suit is too extreme, in my opinion. A modest contour pouch is the way to go. Anyway, these are just my opinions and rules that I personally live by. We all have different thoughts; there's no right answer.
Blackphantom5 #23

Re:When is a pouch too extreme?

Date Posted:07/03/2018 04:02:12Copy HTML

Cant really give a helpful answer without at least knowing what suits being worn and where it’s being worn too.    Otherwise it’s just grossly over generalized personal opinions based on assumptions.   Use common sense and develop a better intuition.  It’ll serve you well through life.  The best way to develop those skills on this issue is to get out there in your thong! You’ll soon learn where and when what suit can be worn.  Just know the law before you go. Otherwise you may learn the hard way. 
NudeNArizona #24

Re:When is a pouch too extreme?

Date Posted:07/04/2018 01:56:00Copy HTML

 Thongalactic, thanks for your opinion and it is just that I understand you don’t want anyone seeing the contours of your genitals,  but your statement of “lock that shit down” is no different than someone saying to you “cover your ass” it is amazing how many people here are criticalOf others who don’t follow their self proclaimed rules for thonging. I know I personally violate most of your “rules” and have been for 30 years. Never will I wear a Linded thong, I only wear G-strings! As for having it contoured completely , that isn’t going to happen, being non-see thru not likely. I do agree with the torpedo’s. An be offensive but if they are legal it’s up to the wearer, I’m sure my see thru fishnet baggie that’s exposing my asshole is offensive but where I have worn it the baggie was legal! Yes people can see every vein of me penis but when I spoke with the park ranger even though he might not have liked it  in the letter of the law it is legal! The same as others torpedo’s but thank you for giving your opinion on how to discourage others from expressing themselves which may be more extreme than your comfort level
gog5150 #25

Re:When is a pouch too extreme?

Date Posted:07/04/2018 01:20:23Copy HTML

 All of my Skinz suits are unlined and the thinskinz fabric. I'm circumcised and no one have ever complained. In fact I've received many compliments from women. I order my suits like that because they dry quickly and the thinskinz fabrics are very comfortable. To each their own.
bmicro #26

Re:When is a pouch too extreme?

Date Posted:07/05/2018 04:02:35Copy HTML

 thongalactic totally had me going with his resemblance to a revival preacher. However, he redeemed himself  when he ended with " Anyway, these are just my opinions and rules that I personally live by. We all have different thoughts; there's no right answer. ". I wish we all could realize that our own rules are not everyone's rules and that there is no universal right answer. e.g. live and let live
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